I don't think those screenshots are from BGEE.

@Caruga, I already suggested a very effective solution to the Ankheg armour and ring of wizadry problem, which also simultaneously addressed the lack of utility of taverns. That thread was met with considerable support by the community on the reddit.

However, I think my problem with your argument Caruga, is that many people, including me, do not see 'tab' as a difficulty related tool in any capacity whatsoever.

My view, and I believe the view of many others, is that it is a convenience tool. It does not make the game any easier, it just makes the game less laborious. Bhryaen pointed out above something like, 'if I know where the ring is, why should I wave my mouse over one spot for 5 minutes just to find it?'.

For the diligent player (regardless how new they are), tab doesn't make the game easier, it just makes the game less of a chore. If you're going to go over every container, and every little niche anyway, it doesn't change anything except reducing the amount of time you waste. Similarly if you don't go over every container, it's because you can't be bothered, i.e. it's too tedious, and again in that case you are simply removing a source of frustration.

If the tab key is removed from the game, I would go on to petition Beamdog to get rid of the spacebar pause. After all, it makes it ridiculously easy if you can stop and think about every action you take. Leaving spacebar pause in may lead to unfortunate scenario where, as 'a gamer is that it's possible to cheat onesself of a challenging experience but only know after the fact of beating the game that it had had that affect'.

My view, and I believe the view of many others, is that it is a convenience tool. It does not make the game any easier, it just makes the game less laborious. Bhryaen pointed out above something like, 'if I know where the ring is, why should I wave my mouse over one spot for 5 minutes just to find it?'.

Laborious -> difficult!?

It recreates what you'd have to do in real life. Real life doesn't have a tab button, you would have to probe with your fingers like you would with the mouse pointer (or in the case of the ipad... your finger).

For the diligent player (regardless how new they are), tab doesn't make the game easier, it just makes the game less of a chore.

Less of a chore -> easier!?

And the ring of wizardry and ankheg armour are, at early game, ridiculously good items, that make the game easier.

Can you link me to your reddit suggestion? Also you didn't comment at all on the idea of flagging items as unfindable, so I'm wondering if your idea was at all similar.

I was the first to say that removing tab isn't that important to me. I want to know what you think of the suggestion I put down as an alternative.

If the tab key is removed from the game, I would go on to petition Beamdog to get rid of the spacebar pause. After all, it makes it ridiculously easy if you can stop and think about every action you take. Leaving spacebar pause in may lead to unfortunate scenario where, as 'a gamer is that it's possible to cheat onesself of a challenging experience but only know after the fact of beating the game that it had had that affect'.

I believe in striking a balance, not removing all helpful features, you misunderstood me if you thought that was what I was for.

Particularly not ones that are fundamental to the gameplay design, like pausing is (recreates the way tabletop D&D is played). Tabbing, conversely, is not fundamental to gameplay. It does have a minor impact on difficulty, but it isn't very consequential. If the game were like Monkey Island, where advancing in the game often requires you to find items with your mouse, it would be a game-breaking feature, not a merely helpful one. It all depends on the game.

For the record, I've used tab in every one of my playthroughs. I haven't decided if I will on my next one. I think it would increase immersion to opt out, ramp up the frustration but also ramp up the reward of finding things (then again I'd locate most things from memory). I may not be a believer in choice on this point but if the game gives me no choice but to have a choice then I'll have to choose. :)

Personally I'd like it if the game had more moments of you being a human metal detector, like if you were playing Monkey Island. But as it stands that isn't what the game is about, mostly. It just has a small element of that. I disagree that it's just about convenience, I think it's a very small underemphasised gameplay facet (that tabbing completely does away with).

Spacebar Pause is Baldur's Gate Sign! :D

@caruga
@HeroicSpur

I have an idea that would not only solve both of your concerns, but also add depth to the gameplay.

You know how some doors don't show up until your party notices them and they turn purple? You can't even hover the cursor over these doors until they've been highlighted, they don't show up with tab, because they're flagged as "Hidden".

Why not flag those smaller, intentionally secret items in the same way? You can pixel-hunt if you know where to look, or you can hope that your thief or party elf notices the cache and it shows up as purple.

Or you can "unlock" the location as part of a tavern rumor, which causes the cache to show up without having to look for it.

That being said, I would recommend that those cache items be increased in size. Because once you do find the cache, it is tedious to move the cursor exactly over it to open it. Make the cache location larger, but conceal it with a "Secret Door" flag, and allow tavern rumors to reveal it.

@Caruga: firstly less of a chore does not mean easier in difficulty terms. Difficulty in any game, is defined as how challenging the game is. The challenge in BG is not determined by how good you are at hidden object games. It is determined by your tactical skill in battle, how sensible you are in preparing and equipping you are party, and how you deal with NPCS/quests. There is no, and there has never been, any difficulty related element of Baldur's Gate that relates to finding things with the cursor (and easter eggs as far as I am aware have never been about difficulty). There are no quests which test your ability to find the right pixel, and proceeding in the game is not contingent on this.

You say: 'I believe in striking a balance, not removing all helpful features, you misunderstood me if you thought that was what I was for.' In light of this, your selection of tab as being a problem strikes me as being entirely arbitrary.

Furthermore, insofar as I recall, prior to the introduction of tab for searching, the searching system had elements which I believe could properly be considered as bugs/broken, which needed to be fixed. In relation to the ring of wizadry in BG1, even if you knew exactly where it was, it could be extremely difficult to find the correct pixel. Using higher resolution makes it almost impossible to find without tab.

Finally my reddit suggestion:

Hey everyone,

I think one area of the game which is a bit flat is the taverns in BG1. You don't actually need to use the tavern rumours to get any quests, so they feel under-utilised. This is disappointing because you can imagine some very interesting stuff coming out with just the right number of drinks...

My suggestion may help kill two birds with stone. There are certain hidden items, ring of wizardy near friendly arm, ankheg plate in a field in nashkel, which with the tab key highlight are very easy to collect and very powerful. Rather than getting rid of these items, make them only appear after the player has heard about them while drinking at the nearby tavern. that way you can stop players getting them too easily and give some utility to taverns.

Aosaw! How can you recommend that (tavern rumours) as a solution to me, that was my recommendation weeks ago!!!

I know - I remember (and I liked the suggestion, clearly ;-) ). I'm just synthesizing your idea with another idea, and combining them into one big super-idea. I don't think the tavern-idea alone will solve the problem; because a rumor is just a rumor, and a lot of players won't bother with the taverns, but they should be able to find those items anyway.

Making them "Hidden" items that can be revealed just like any secret door or passage would allow "the players with high spot checks" to find them in passing (maybe with a level-based check to ensure that you don't find them before a certain point in the game), and the players who go to the tavern can find them earlier on by investing a little gold.

Anyone think their 'hands-off' approach on the existing content is the right way to go?

Would I like the old content to be improved more than what they suggest it will be? Sure. I'd like that the background art and sprites be improved to support higher resolutions instead of everything being shrunk to support them. I'd like the old characters to get more lines to say, even if they aren't voiced. But unfortunately BGEE probably won't include any of that.

So I just have to hope that the new content is good and that they fix what's broken.

I pretty much agree with Tanthalas.

Also,

Spacebar Pause is Baldur's Gate Sign! :D

Spacebar pause is something every single RPG and RTS in existence should have. Best convenience/tactical feature ever (in RTS it would also defeat the main unfair advantage the AI has on the player: being able to give multiple simultaneous orders to its units scattered across the whole map, rather than concentrating on just one squad in one spot at a time).

Andrea:
Spacebar pause is something every single RPG and RTS in existence should have.

lol Yeah, HeroicSpur! How dare you suggest that we abandon the Spacebar Pause, you cruel Bhaalspawn, you! hehe I believe though that he was suggesting it facetiously simply to provide a joking counterexample to caruga's "make it more difficult by reducing my options" suggestion...

On that subject I side with HeroicSpur. "TAB" is a great convenience tool, something that anyone without 20/20 vision can greatly appreciate. What possible enjoyment can one get from pixel-hunting? But then, maybe caruga does get enjoyment from it... and in that case, by all means, don't use TAB! Easy solutions... And really, it isn't hard to understand why "if you don't like it, don't use it" works when it's an option.

And caruga's example of not using healing potions in "Tomb Raider" doesn't demonstrate caruga's point, but undermines it. Quite the contrary: he voluntarily didn't use them. The game didn't force him to go without them. So for someone finding more depth in a game by struggling harder to survive and upping the standards of an acceptable victory, that option existed... and for those who want to slurp their way to easier survival, they have that option as well. All win.

I finally switched to Nightmare for DAO and tried the Dalish origin, having to battle nasty spiders and the ruins bear thingy... I did it over and over trying to avoid using healing poultices... because that's me- though ultimately I didn't, resorting to using 2 through the entire ruins. And yet the option remains for people to breeze it on Easy and Normal "difficulty" level, or manage handily on Hard as I have before. (Or not use Pause during the ordeal... hehe) But at no point was I forced to play Nightmare or given only 2 healing poutlices to survive with... which sort of makes my victory that much more enjoyable: I opted for harder and prevailed. (Not to mention I let only my own character fight...)

BG itself has a relatively limited supply of healing potions (not to mention Speed and Invisibility potions which are scarce, best-if-rationed items), even if you steal and buy as much as you can in the early Chapter 1. So BG already makes difficulty challenging, requiring you to be tactical. However... hunting for a 5-pixel hiding spot in 1000s isn't a challenge, isn't a difficulty, isn't a win: it's a tedious bother, particularly for those of us who generally know where it is already and aren't going to be "roleplaying" a search for pixels. Sure- keep it a hidden spot, but the TAB convenience tool should be available for those of us who enjoy the less laborious game experiences more where you have to think, not just scan...

That said, I could go for Aosaw's idea of them being unlocked by a Tavern Rumor about a diamond in a tree or a Fire Resist Ring somewhere in the rock face in the south (ok, HeroicSpur's general idea :-P), and/ or making finding it a matter of a thief with higher trap finding or an elf discovering it like discovering a secret door... But then they'd no longer be easter eggs, would they? They'd be quests/ secret doors... and BG would no longer be the same... I'd be just fine with that- would quite enjoy it actually- but then what fun free stuff would remain available? Why exclude the multitude of "Tomb Raider healing potion imbibers" who already play BG happy that they know that secret easter egg info going in to it...? BG has plenty of misery to offer as counterbalance...

caruga...
Anyone think their 'hands-off' approach on the existing content is the right way to go?

I don't. But then again I have mixed feelings about it. I feel a little like the Who wondering about Uncle Ernie allowed to "fiddle about" with BG, even if "all" they do is add new content and not change the existing content. After all, I can't seem to find a single Beamdog title that even interests me, much less comes close to one of the "canon" cRPGs out there. The only thing that keeps me tentatively contented is the devs' BG background and their experience in game creation, plus some idiosyncratic and anecdotal tidbits I've picked up from Twitter and elsewhere. Still, I wish we had more of a sense of what they were doing and why they're doing it.

The whole "pipeline approval" thingy remains an enigma, and there's been scant clarification on it, so it's entirely possible that Bioware and Atari (and whichever umpteen other approvers are required) simply won't let them touch the original areas and won't even let them inform us of that restriction... or the pipeline may just be a convenience tool to avoid doing such extensive reworking of BG- no way to know for certain for those not an insider.

I also agree with HeroicSpur on "achievements" worked into the game. There was an early OsterTweet that was favorable to "looking into them," I believe. Although I do see the appeal for a game like DAO of having them (since I'd never bother to learn a skill as ultimately ineffectual as DAO's Whirlwind otherwise...) I find it distasteful applied to BG's gameplay. Achievements are a very metagamed, mechanics-oriented approach over a story and role-play approach- i.e., not really BG's strong point... Long-term interest in BG would be better based on improving its options, content, gameplay, and accessibility- and leaving it at that- than on Completing Chapter 4 Without Dying! Defeated Kahrk on Insane! Learned All Divination Spells! Endured Noober! Yeah... just sounds like lots of hyped score-based stupid applied to BG...

"Just did Durlag's, and now I'm a 450pt BGer! Woo-hoo!"
"But did you like the story of Durlag's with the whole betrayal v paranoia part, the sinister but sad element? Great dungeon crawl, no?"
"Of course! I got the 'Completed Durlag's Before Level 6 Achievement' at the same time as the 'Durlag Dungeoneer Achievement!' Plus I got the 'Killed 10 Wyverns Achievement' down there too!"
"Uh... yeah, not what I meant..."

As to Herokon's isometric graphics, it looks very good to me, lots to like... but not BG- not in appearance, not in character. One thing BG3 really ought to do is emulate BG1 & 2- providing continuity as such- rather than veer off completely- at least if it's going to be a BG3 rather than a Herokon3. Can't recall who mentioned this, but I too hope the new BG1 areas aren't jarringly different or Herokon-like so that we have to cross a BG-world quarantine checkpoint to be there, having to leave our BG at the door before entering. I still wince whenever arriving to the odd, flat orange-green turf in Ulgoth's Beard that feels little like the rest of BG...

And caruga's example of not using healing potions in "Tomb Raider" doesn't demonstrate caruga's point, but undermines it. Quite the contrary: he voluntarily didn't use them. The game didn't force him to go without them.

That demonstrates my point. I said the choice not to use them was arbitrarily made, I did not and could not know if it was going to make the game better or worse for me. That is why I advocate the game forcing a choice, in some cases. I could easily have chosen to play it normally as so many others did.

I mean, how did you miss this paragraph:

As I said, the no-health-pack playthrough was completely arbitrary on my part, I had no idea if it would make things way too hard or what. Similarly, to bring this point around to where we started, to never use tab would also be arbitrary on the part of a newcoming player.

Also:

I also agree with HeroicSpur on "achievements" worked into the game. There was an early OsterTweet that was favorable to "looking into them," I believe. Although I do see the appeal for a game like DAO of having them (since I'd never bother to learn a skill as ultimately ineffectual as DAO's Whirlwind otherwise...) I find it distasteful applied to BG's gameplay. Achievements are a very metagamed, mechanics-oriented approach over a story and role-play approach- i.e., not really BG's strong point... Long-term interest in BG would be better based on improving its options, content, gameplay, and accessibility- and leaving it at that- than on Completing Chapter 4 Without Dying! Defeated Kahrk on Insane! Learned All Divination Spells! Endured Noober! Yeah... just sounds like lots of hyped score-based stupid applied to BG...

Strange, did you not recently tell me that players can simply choose not to partake in a part of the game, and that everyone wins if a feature not everyone likes is left in...?

Haven't been monitoring Twitter lately... Shows how much one can miss in a few days of tuning out...

One great thing from a recent OsterTweet:

"We're pretty anxious to keep #bgee and #bg2ee going after release. New content is a big part of those plans"

This is quite good, no? Part of that ongoing support is reflected in a new forum site, the looks of which are shown here. I like it! :-)
http://99designs.com/other-website-app-design/contests/baldur-gate-forums-design-help-135397

Apparently it's a contest of some sort. Not inclined to submit such an entry, I'll just be appreciating the entries. :-)

On the question of "fiddling about" with old content, apparently it's already decided:

"We are not rewriting any original content other than minor bug fixes. Our content efforts are all on the new adventures/characters."

Well, at least there's no more suspense. Still... most of my favorite suggestions were all content based... no NPC dialogue extras, no tavern rumor quests, no Ulcaster secret door quest, no new official Gullykin Mountaintop encounter... *grumble, grumble* Oh, well, not the kind of enhancements we're looking at, so I'll just have to keep whining about mod inclusion... which is also getting some play...

"#Mods are on my mind. #bgee"

hehehe Mods are very part of BG heritage- the early content rework, the BGTutu efforts culiminating in BGT, and the plethora of content and tweak mods since then which make BG so accessible despite the sea changes in cRPGs since BG's inception. Must account for them! :-P

I like this quotable quote as well:

"Part of our desire to build a great community is for the fans to help us focus our work"

That's actually harder to manage than it sounds, but it sounds good. The conflicting proclivities and emphases of the fans somewhat forces the devs to be conspicuously selective, but the idea of "direction" by fans is great. It seems like it would've been soooo much better if the mod-building community had had a more centralized basis from which to develop their own material- like with the NWNVault that includes everything. Then there's more interplay between the modders (as well as devs to some degree) and more potential for collaboration.

caruga...
Strange, did you not recently tell me that players can simply choose not to partake in a part of the game, and that everyone wins if a feature not everyone likes is left in...?

The key difference is that you can't really get around the "achievements" in DAO, can you? In fact, the system is how you acquire the DLC's free, no? It's not something you can just switch off in the options or not use- not with them flashed on the screen upon "achieving" them regardless- plus it's a big part of one's DAO online experience, constantly seeing them and having a "% completion" categoriy that requires all the "achievements" to get to 100%, including the most revolting evil crap. So if that were to come to BGEE, it would have the same overly conspicuous effect.

It's the difference between not watching a TV program that's advertised everywhere and that you have to pass on your way to other channels... and a channel you can only access by hitting the TAB key... *shrugs* Not really any self-contradiction there... And besides, my suggestion is just to not invest in an "achievements" system, not to get rid of it. Fortunately it isn't already in BG as an "option" for BGEE to do away with...

But I didn't miss your points- one of which was that TAB remaining an option apparently wouldn't bother you... Really you missed the point I was making: removing the TAB option caters to only one BG player type- the type who enjoys hunting down pixels and can see every container on the screen easily, maybe someone with great IRL vision and/ or a very large monitor... I'm not one of those players, nor are many, many others. It's the equivalent of asking the devs to please keep the small font because it simulates how hard it is to hear sometimes... It's just harder for me to read on screen. What joy.

That said, I did used to be like you: I never used TAB-type highlighting in a game until yrs later for pretty much the same reasons. And it would be that easy to continue not using it... but I've come to appreciate different aspects of a game experience than whether or not it's easy to find where the interactive stuff is... TAB does disrupt immersion to some degree- but what's the point of immersion in tedium after all? If I wanted to immerse myself in tedium I could go do the laundry... lol

Really you missed the point I was making: removing the TAB option caters to only one BG player type- the type who enjoys hunting down pixels and can see every container on the screen easily, maybe someone with great IRL vision and/ or a very large monitor...

Are you sure we're playing the same game? Most containers are quite large, the hidden treasure caches are the exception.

That said, I did used to be like you: I never used TAB-type highlighting in a game until yrs later for pretty much the same reasons. And it would be that easy to continue not using it... but I've come to appreciate different aspects of a game experience than whether or not it's easy to find where the interactive stuff is... TAB does disrupt immersion to some degree- but what's the point of immersion in tedium after all? If I wanted to immerse myself in tedium I could go do the laundry... lol

I actually have always used tab since it became available. In BG1 like everyone else I would just wiggle my mouse over the screen at the spots looking likely to contain something; on rare occasions I would miss something, but I felt that to be part of the exploration element. I don't think it's as trying as you make it sound. Less so with the zoom feature they're including.

I say we move on from this subject though, since I know tab isn't going to be removed. For the very few intentionally pixel-sized containers, I prefer the 'hide-from-tab' flag on containers idea to the idea of connecting it to rumours (but I like that idea too), and they could be made larger as a result of either idea, as even when knowing the thing was there it was hard to find without cheating with the coordinate system.

I agree that rumours should be made more relevent ... but for that to happen, they'll first have to reverse their stance of not touching the original content except for bugs. Then again Trent also said they were considering 'unfinished business' (i.e. completing quests/plot-threads that were unfinished in the last release due to time constraints), so maybe I misunderstand what the stance really is.

Actually, I'd like to discuss just a bit further: just out of interest, what is people's position on other convenience features? One doesn't need to stop at tab after all. I was just watching a playthrough of the newly released Risen 2, and noticed how it displays a chest as locked or not just by hovering the mouse over it. Whereas in BG you have to attempt to open it to discover if it's locked (just like real life) and maybe risk springing a trap in doing so.

This bears parallels to the idea of 'tabbing'--to show the container state in a tooltip is also a 'convenient' thing, but that also takes out some immersion and realism. I unquestioningly favour having to try and open the chest, the loss of immersiveness is not worth the tradeoff of convenience. With tabs I don't feel nearly as strongly, but it's an echo of the same concept. Bhryaen said that achievements are meta-game and intrusive on the experience, I feel to a lesser degree the same way about showing locked state in tooltips, and less still, but still, so about tabbing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a balance to be struck somewhere, between immersion and realism in the game, and taking tedious aspects out of the game. I'm wondering how far in either direction peoples sentiments lie. My feeling is that most people would find "locked" showing up in tooltips in the new BG to be fairly odious, but I have to ask to be sure (maybe i'll regret bringing the idea up and they put it in, lol).

I think it's completely unecessary. I just press f5 and however over containers I've identified with tab so I can rapidly tell if they're locked or not. Also it tends to be only certain containers that are locked, e.g.a desk, or a chest, which means it really isn't much of a bother.

Also I simply don't believe that the 'realism' features you describe them, are realism features at all. If realism was a part of searching, you should be able to look inside the contents of every single container. Furthermore you shouldn't be able to tell if a container might have something in it from a considerable distance (i.e. you mouse over it from a screen away). If it was realistic you should only be able to look for containers with the mouse, if a character was sufficiently proximate.

Also the simple fact that the game is isometric undermines the point that it's realistic not to have tab search. It's not realistic to be able to control every action of a humanoid being. If it was realistic characters should act entirely independently like they do in Fallout 1 and 2. Again tied to the proximity point, the isometric view lets you 'see' (without tab) if containers are searchable from the other side of a solid obstacle like a bookcase, which again is highly unrealistic.

The only way searching could be realistic is if the game was first-person and you actually had to look at the items and physically pick them, like you do in something like Elder Scrolls.

If you wanted to (which you clearly don't), you could actually make the argument that 'tab' represents the party have a look around to try and spot anything which looks like it might contain something worth taking. i.e. tab= have a look around/case the joint. This is further supported by the fact that tab will only highlight objects within explored territory.
e.g.
CharA: See anything interesting? (TAB KEY pressed)
CharB: Yes, I see a couple of chests, which look they might have some stuff in them. There's also a bookcase over there....
or
CharB: Hey! I saw something glint in the grass by that tree!

In that way, if you think of tab as 'having a look', like in Witcher 2 where the medallion is what reveals searchable objects, then it is perfectly plausible.

I don't see why you should have to search with the mouse to find containers. The cursor is a hand, not an eye. If it were the case that mousing around reflected searching, then it follows you should have to use your mouse to control the individual attacks of your party members (i.e. click repeatedly). Just as you have to search each pixel individually you should have to perform each attack individually.

Also if searching by cursor is realistic, you should have an additional cursor for each party member. After all, if there's 6 party members you can search a large area much quicker. It's not realistic you can only search one bit of ground at a time with the mouse when there's 6 of you.

I have nothing to add to what HeroicSpur just mentioned regarding game realism- nor his earlier post on what a meaningful challenge for BG entails (i.e., not merely swathing the cursor about pointlessly)- except to say those are excellent points.

So true about the cursor being like a hand (and indeed that's the symbol that the arrow becomes when one clicks in BG)... yet another reason I don't like having to swing my "hand" off-screen in order to move the view *ahem* area in BG. I'd rather be able to move the view area with a hotkey so I can click independently of camera movement- or else enable that other option suggested on reddit where you can center the camera on the selected character so that it moves with you. That would also be the most realistic option, mind you...

caruga...
maybe i'll regret bringing the idea up and they put it in, lol

They better not! No, I stop at the convenience of being able to see in-game selectables better with my eyesight and monitor, not identify exactly what they are or what condition they're in. Although I use the highlighter in DAO as well, I immediately got rid of that distracting "magic fizzle" that by default glows on selectables... as if they're magic... and fizzling... That was an option: I opted out, and I'm happier for it. DAO doesn't, however, allow the option of checking each lockable item for its lockability, which, yes, is cheesy. Giving the player that sort of information isn't merely making a tedious aspect more convenient to resolve (or, as HeroicSpur pointed out, making a more realistic simulation of a visual search), it's outright removing from the game an otherwise interesting class-based challenge- i.e., something that a rogue (thief) should be needed for, checking for traps, examining locks, scouting even with treasure chests one comes to. Simply being able to spot something on a screen is not that sort of class-based challenge. It's just how well you the player can see and read into the graphics... and boredom has a way of killing immersion as well...

Even using TAB though... you see the chest in the room that you thought was part of the scenery (since some chests are just part of the background art after all, so where is the realism there, swathing the cursor repeatedly at what ends up being mere ambiance?), but it doesn't give you the contents. Can't say how many times I TABbed, saw a chest, ah-ha!, sent whoever, BAMMO. Oh, yeah, traps. Think Durlag's. You're still in a pickle even if you can now make out that there's a chest there. Or the selectable pool of gunk might be behind a greater ghoul. Yeah, it's there alright, but not the main thing on the party's mind at that moment...

The only thing I might recommend with the TAB identification to keep it less distracting is to make it more of a mild glow rather than the bright blue. Then you might not be able to see so well those few slightly glowing pixels and have to move the cursor about pixel by pixel anyway... Again: what joy. I use the TAB just to get the info, then let it go. As apparently do you, caruga, who already admit that you've been using it all along, naughty as it is... I simply don't feel bad about it- not nearly as bad as straining my eyes and patience over something that I would be able to see if I actually were there as the character.

It's also nice that we have options in BG to remove all sorts of other immersion-killing distractions: combat info, avatar ellipsoids, etc. But who does? Well, I get rid of the ellipsoids, but the basic combat info is fun to watch, and again, as a convenience tool you then don't have to keep opening character sheets to note HP. To simulate the process of checking people out during combat, we should have no health indication at all except on the character sheet screen... and what a bloody bother that would be. At some point immersiveness can cross into fun-killing.

My two cents:
• Achievements: BG already has it, its called a journal. I don't want or need a trophy chest where I can see what I've missed. That's the joy in replaying the game.
• TAB and taverns: TAB button is also very helpful in highlighting dropped items which happen to be obscured by walls or objects. NOT having it in this instance is actually immersion breaking: why would your character not be able to see something just because of your limited and unmovable viewpoint? On the other hand something like a hidden flag on containers which gets removed through tavern rumours would be quite welcome! Secret doors aren't highlighted by TAB are they? But I would say searching for a glint of something in a small hole in a tree is exactly the same as searching for a glint of something in a loose brick which opens a door.

I wonder if anybody found Ring of Wizardry (or any other secret item) without walkthrough/hint.

Breaking News... :P
If someone don't have time to see all the news on twitter you can read them on reddit "List of changes" thread... updated daily by me :D

Where is the BGEE reddit?

Posted by Bhryaen: "We are not rewriting any original content other than minor bug fixes. Our content efforts are all on the new adventures/characters."

Well, at least there's no more suspense. Still... most of my favorite suggestions were all content based... no NPC dialogue extras, no tavern rumor quests, no Ulcaster secret door quest, no new official Gullykin Mountaintop encounter... *grumble, grumble* Oh, well, not the kind of enhancements we're looking at, so I'll just have to keep whining about mod inclusion... which is also getting some play...
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If that's true then screw this game. There's so much to work on what's already there and they're not even gonna touch it? They're just gonna make the game bigger? Add more characters when the existing ones barely have a line each? WTF.

I was fricking stoked when I heard the news but obviously it had to be a disapointment. It's no surprise, the game industry is rotten. This is the one shot at making Bg perfect and they're just gonna ruin it. There was so many good suggestions on here and they're just gonna ignore it all? I don't give a damn if it's a contract thing it's still fricking stupid so they should be able to negociate it.

I wouldn't be so sad about this if I actually did like Mods but I don't. Mods are mostly made by a bunch of programmers with limited creativity and sub-par writing skills so I only use the ones that fix bugs and such. (No offense to any programmers out there). Not only that but I hate going online to get Mods, it takes me off the game. I don't want to think about the fact that I'm playing something that isn't in the original content. It's sort of like watching Lord of the Rings extended editions after you've seen the originals so many times that you know exactly when the cut scenes are and you find a lot of them awkward and out of place.

I don't know if there's still time to change their mind I hope there is. I just don't get it. Improving the original content would bring new players so much more into it than adding more zones. This is Baldur's Gate 1 we're talking about here it doesn't even NEED new zones! Is a new player going to notice whether there's 50 or 55 zones to explore? No. Is he going to even care about the 26th and 27th Npc when the canon ones aren't even given any lines? No. Kids have played these dragon age games and they're gonna want the same level of realism (I don't mean graphics) and interactivity. This is a RPG do I need to say what the letters stand for? I wanted them to do this right and to bridge the two games together. Just make the game tidy. It's already perfect it just needs an extra glow. Instead they're just gonna make it bigger and make it feel emptier.

I can't believe that hardcore Bg fans such as you guys are letting this pass while you're taking 3 pages to discuss the importance of the tab button. I mean seriously? The TAB button? Honestly if I was a dev. I would stop reading this place once I see that it has devolved into a ''should we get rid of the tab button'' discussion. (No offense I'm just pissed off by this news).

@sanctvs

Could you give us a link?

@Azl0n

I believe they stated that every change they make has to pass through a 'pipeline' watched by both Bioware and EA... so to me, it makes perfect sense that Bioware wouldn't want them, or would limit the amount of tinkering they can do with the original content that they saw fit to release as it was in 1998.

That said, if you want this developer to have more pull for future projects like BG2EE or IWDEE or BG3, then support the product they are developing now.

P.S. The Tab button discussion is pretty ridiculous.

Posted by NineCoronas: I believe they stated that every change they make has to pass through a 'pipeline' watched by both Bioware and EA... so to me, it makes perfect sense that Bioware wouldn't want them, or would limit the amount of tinkering they can do with the original content that they saw fit to release as it was in 1998.
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Makes sense that they don't want them to improve the game? Not to me.

I think you might be overreacting.

They are improving the game, in all of the ways that don't change the content of the game.

When they released the special edition of Star Wars, they didn't rewrite the dialogue, or reshoot scenes; they just made the existing scenes and dialogues look better (and added in some things that had been cut).

This is exactly the same way. They're giving the UI and graphics a face-lift to bring it into the contemporary era, they're adding a few new things, and for the most part they're leaving the story-based content that's already there as it was in 1998. The writing wasn't bad; there's no reason to change it.

It's unfortunate that they don't have the influence to be able to bring all the voice actors back to add some new dialogue to the old NPCs, or to expand their storylines - but remember that this is an Enhanced Edition, not "Baldur's Gate v2.0".

I think some people are getting this re-release confused with an "entirely new game with some of the old content". And aren't we also looking at a final price tag of $10?

EDIT: To your point about Bioware not wanting them to improve the game - it's less about them not wanting the game to be improved, and more about them wanting to be able to control how the game is improved, and how deeply. So Overhaul has to take every single change through a control board with EA, Bioware, and Atari, to make sure that everybody approves of the change before it can be implemented.

The developers have more leeway when it comes to the UI and the actual code; but the content is a lot more dicey, and it can quickly grind the project to a halt if it's not taken in deliberate, modest doses.

Hi,
for reddit:
It is a private forum so you can tweet Cameron Tofer or click on the feedback button here on the left and ask for inclusion. Overhaul is studying a new forum through 99designs.com so I think that all the discussion will be transferred here when it will be done.

This game looks like it has some potential.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned. How about fixing/updating the NPCs and monsteres, increasing their resolution, frame-rates, and detailing? That should be a pretty simple task.

TAB. IMO this was always stupid and just put in for lazy gamers. Similar to the compass feature in BGII. One of the great things about BGI was that it was open-ended and you really had to pay attention to the quests to figure out where to go. In Many of the BGII quests, all they amount to is following the dot on the map. Takes a bit of the challenge out of it. This is probably why exporing the wilderness in BGI is fun, as you never know what you're going to find.

Perhaps in the advanced menu, there could be an option for disabling the TAB and compass features. Similar to playing the game on highest difficulty level. It would make hardcore BGers happy!

Otherwise, I'm indifferent to new quests. Adding new material to a classic game is always hit-or-miss. Whatever. Quests are always optional, and as others have stated, there is plenty of loose ends in BGI to allow some really cool quests. A gullykin quest would be epic for a lvl 1 party!