At some point immersiveness can cross into fun-killing.
Agreed. It is, as I said, about striking a balance; and people will differ on where the balance lies (though I don't think any of us are too at odds on that matter, there is only a slight disagreement). Taking out some feedback is like taking away the players' eyes, and that, I would argue, is unrealistic (unless you don't have any eyes in RL :P). One can't see ones HP in real life, but it is analogous to something in real life: our ability to assess how we feel and the injuries we've sustained. Whereas tabbing is just like a free magical spell, I don't think it can be claimed to be analogous to our characters' faculties, and thus nor be immersive, in any capacity. That, I think, is where the crucial difference lies and they are not of the same order of thing.
Hmm, I think I've just come to understand my own feelings on the matter a bit better: if tabbing were made into a spell (maybe merged with clarvoiyance, as an added effect, after which the tab key becomes effective) I would be quite happy with it; then it could be said to be an extension of the characters' faculties, subject to the games' universes' laws. Conversely, it would be just as consistent to not do that but get rid of the identify spell, and have tab expose the identity of an item for free.
Both of these after all are mini(micro?)-games that some people just find tedious. My idea of expanding how identify works to be more realistic was already shot down by one person as just making things more tedious: but then why even bother with it. To me, tabbing is magical--and magic in the D&D universe is subject to certain rules, you don't get to do it for free with abandon. If I am to ask of an ability "what extension of the character's faculties does this represent or parallel?" I want to be able to have an answer. If I cannot come up with one, then it is meta-game, not representing anything the character is able to do, and has potential to harm the immersion. If I can come up with one, then it is immersive and doesn't take me out of the game. So if tabbing was turned into a spell (say, cast it once and it lasts 48 hrs, or even a 10000 hours for that matter) after which tab works as it usually does--it would make all the difference and I would be in favour of it!
Yes, I'm like that.
And it only requires a "tab works without casting the relevent spell" tickbox to keep everyone happy who thinks that this idea sucks.
Another variation (which i'm not as in favour of) that would make it represent the faculties of the party, would be to have to hold the key down and watch the party members do a few turns or wander a bit for a few moments. Then, again, it would represent something the character is doing, instead of being auto-magical.
Similar to the compass feature in BGII. One of the great things about BGI was that it was open-ended and you really had to pay attention to the quests to figure out where to go. In Many of the BGII quests, all they amount to is following the dot on the map. Takes a bit of the challenge out of it. This is probably why exporing the wilderness in BGI is fun, as you never know what you're going to find.
LOL, oh boy. In all my time of playing BG2 I never even noticed the frigging compass! You've just ruined the game for me now. ;)
I'm not 100% on what the compass does--point out quest destinations, like in Skyrim? Is it possible to turn it off?
With disabling tabbing, the way I envision it would be just having the tab key unbound in the configuration, at least on the PC version. I don't know if that's how it'll work, though.
@AzL0n: I hear you. There's a huge gamut of improvements to the existing content that almost beg to be made. The approval process sounds like a real-roadblock to getting ambitious with this project.
I'd love to go through the game and experience something new about the sections I've been through countless times before (they should keep in mind that a lot of their potential market is people who have played the game many times). And I don't mean the experience of a new interface, pleasant though that is. This would sell it to people who have played the game before, it only makes no difference to newcomers.
At least they said they'd fix broken stuff. I don't know if that means just bugs, or also incompleted stuff, or even also balance-related stuff. It's a funny question how one draws the line... e.g. lowering exp giveout (to help extend the levels so that the newly added EE content to BG1 doesn't result in an overlevelled character in BG2, for example) is a content adjustment--but retuning resting would be more of an adjustment to the engine--but both are balance tweaks!--so are they in the same category or separate ones?
But I guess they haven't said whether they'd even consider a lot of the ideas. All we know is which ones we like and which ones we don't. And we're only a small portion of the BG fan-base, and can't claim to represent everyone.
I'd like to hear them explicitly say what ideas they've thrown out as undoable no-question. You rightly point out that a lot of suggestions are content-orientated, so I'd like to hear it from their lips if those ideas have been ruled out totally.
Even using TAB though... you see the chest in the room that you thought was part of the scenery (since some chests are just part of the background art after all, so where is the realism there, swathing the cursor repeatedly at what ends up being mere ambiance?), but it doesn't give you the contents. Can't say how many times I TABbed, saw a chest, ah-ha!, sent whoever, BAMMO. Oh, yeah, traps. Think Durlag's. You're still in a pickle even if you can now make out that there's a chest there. Or the selectable pool of gunk might be behind a greater ghoul. Yeah, it's there alright, but not the main thing on the party's mind at that moment...
I felt it was tabbing was anti-immersive, moreso than hunting with your mouse pointer was immersive. It's especially unrealistic if you are able to tab-view things on a section of the map not in any of your party-members' LOS.
While i'm on that thought, does anyone think that vision should be a more important/developed gameplay element? Not sure if this subject has been raised already. I remember how certain races would have enhanced vision at night, etc. but I don't recall ever noticing it having much of an impact. I like the idea of possession of a certain party member having more dramatic results.
That also reminds me: I'd like to know which things that have been modded in they are considering adopting officially, and which they are not. We can't just take it for granted that they'll "pick out and adopt all the good ones" which is a matter of opinion after all.
For instance, I think in BG2 Viconia loses her 50% magic resistance, but there's a mod to put it back in. I think it should stay in! I remember hasting a whole party in BG1 just to cross a map quicker, and Viconia would lag behind due to her magically resisting it, and I'd get 'you must gather your party', heh. Frustrating, but it made the game more real and cool: I'm in favour of this sort of thing. Then again the drows in the underdark lacked natural magic resistance too, maybe its removal was to make it consistent with that...?